mspaintadventuresfandomcom-20200224-history
Talk:Calliope/Archive 1
Uranian? Wikipedia has a lot to offer on what uranian could refer to. Specifically interesting are Uranian as a third gender (which is odd considering trolls do not have relationships defined by human gender lines) and Uranian astrology, which uses 16-th harmonic angles, corresponding to the 16 different binary combinations of deoxyribonucleotide bases, which the introduction of Uracil violates. Then consider uranium's in-story connotations. Really it's just epileptic trees on that simple word choice. WarpZoness 17:35, November 15, 2011 (UTC) Trolls certainly do have relationships defined by gender. Vriska and Terezi are called the "Scourge Sisters," Feferi is the Empress-to-be, etc. They refer to each other as boys or girls all the time. 21:39, November 15, 2011 (UTC) : I was referring to Troll Relationships, not the concept of interpersonal relationships in general. WarpZoness 22:39, November 15, 2011 (UTC) Species? In the one conversation so far, it says UU is "cheering" GG. Trolling is to trolls, so maybe UU is a "cheer?"Alexnobody 16:34, November 15, 2011 (UTC) I don't think thats a possibility Often other words are used in the pesterlogs, like Jade ceased pestering John etc. I think the fact that trolls are trolling was just a coincidence. Loverdesang 17:54, November 15, 2011 (UTC) I think that the scratch also affected the troll's universe somehow, and it was reverted back to the way it was in the original troll's session. Their "better starting conditions" made thier world harsh and unforgiving from the previously happy lovey world of niceness that Karkat's ancestor remembered. The scratch may have turned it back into the nice world that it was, and that's why UU is so nice and "cheering" to Jane. The letters at the computer were in the troll's alphabet, and the hands on the keyboard were the same shade of pale grey as any other troll. 05:11, November 16, 2011 (UTC) She still is a troll. She just has a different messenger. Chezrush 22:03, January 4, 2012 (UTC) Ophiuchus? Where is the evidence that this character is associated with the Ophiuchus sign? I have been unable to find any source linking the Caduceus to Ophiuchus. --DarthEinstein 17:00, November 15, 2011 (UTC) According to Wikipedia: : "Ophiuchus is depicted as a man grasping a serpent; the interposition of his body divides the snake constellation Serpens into two parts, Serpens Caput and Serpens Cauda, which are nonetheless counted as one constellation." Therefore if you place Ophiuchus with the two parts of Serpens together, it forms a Caduceus. WarpZoness 17:35, November 15, 2011 (UTC) : The caduceus is the staff of Hermes/Mercury, not Aesclapius' rod. It is associated with Mercury and similar to the astrological symbol for Mercury--there could be new trolls, using planetary symbols since at least one human is using zodiacal sigils--what with Jane having a tiara that looks remarkably like Fef's. : Ophiuchus is not a sign of the zodiac. It is one of 13 constellations that cross the ecliptic, but the signs of the zodiac are exactly 30 degrees and don't correspond exactly to the other 12 constellations. It has never been accepted as a sign of the zodiac by anyone in traditional tropical astrology, mainstream sidereal astrology, or Hindu sidereal astrology. ISAR, NCGR, AFA and other astrological societies which certify astrologers to practise don't recognise it. In 1970 a kook named Schmidt tried to get people to accept a 14 sign zodiac including Ophiuchus and Cetus. This failed, but every few years after that someone finds this book and writes another one and starts a minor brouhaha. I remember reading about this as a 13 year old in the late 70s. (Yeah I'm old.) : In January, an astronomer named Parke Kunkle at a planetarium in 'Minnesota' dug this old controversy up to make astrology look stupid, and because we have the Internet now, a lot of people who weren't astrologers, occultists or New Agers heard about it, and it even hit CNN. A couple of fringey New Age types wrote some books about it in the next few months, but Ophiuchus still isn't and probably never will be a generally accepted sign of the zodiac. Astrology is a pretty intellectually conservative field; some folks still use William Lilly and Ptolemy as references. :) : I suppose it's possible that Hussie might think it was funny to use Ophiuchus, BUT given the way that he's very carefully worked with the symbols so far, I wouldn't put any faith in this theory until/unless he confirms it. Which I personally don't think he will. Ataniell93 06:22, November 18, 2011 (UTC) For that matter, how did anyone come to the conclusion that she was a Troll and more specifically, Jane's patron troll? :Although the first conversations are normally not with a patron troll, it resembles Karkat's conversation with Jade so.--+Axis 20:49, November 15, 2011 (UTC) :There's also the use of the Daedric Alphabet, which in Homestuck is associated with the Trolls. --WarpZoness 22:42, November 15, 2011 (UTC) :Even so, that could be any troll's hand. Should't we put off declaring her a troll until it's proven instory? Are we certain she's not in one of the four universes? Edit: I think I see the rationale, given that she claims to be a player but is not in one of the sessions we have seen (A2 and B1). However, she could be one of the trolls from session A1 (one of the ancestors), as it is not firmly contradicted by any of her statements. I admit the possibility is remote. (She could even be Aradia's ancestor, now in A2, contacting Jane under the orders (or behind the back) of Lord English.) TricksterWolf 08:17, November 26, 2011 (UTC) :I added to the opening to broaden the possibility that UU may be from the pre-scratch troll session. If I'm in error about this possibility, let me know! (I should probably be an a forum somewhere where people discuss this comic...do they make those? Though maybe not being there means I come up with different ideas...) TricksterWolf 08:47, November 26, 2011 (UTC) Karkat Link Apologies for the formatting here. this is my first contribution in any way. Just a thought, but regarding the possible Karkat tie: if Karkat's sign came from his ancestor's bindings, it's possible the caduceus would have represented The Sufferer, had it not been for Doc Scratch's interference within the A2 Session. Their first bits of dialogue are even mirrors of each other. See: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002759 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006081 --Soitsmutiny 23:15, November 29, 2011 (UTC) :I'm the one who thought up the Karkat tie-in to UU, and even I admit it's highly speculative; being trans I know a bit about trans myth, and when I added the bit about Tiresias, I noticed others had found additional gender-based themes. When I looked at the RGB codes it seemed like an eerie coincidence but it is certainly a red herring. The 92 is clearly for Uranium, and Andrew would have had to have planned this years in advance to get the 62/92 --> 69/cancer relationship set up. (Or he could travel into the past to tell himself to do it, I suppose, pending I give him the time codes, which apparently I eventually shall...) :It is kind of a cool coincidence, though, and I suppose it's possible Andrew actually reads these boards, in which case he could decide to change anything at anytime just to make it look like he's actually that awesome. (This also gives plausible deniability to the time travel thing, fortunately.) :Anyway, the dialog (dialogUe?) you mention is actually a motif repeated in more than one other initial conversation between a kid and a troll (this is implied by the opening paragraph). I suppose it's notable that Karkat/Jade is one of those pairings, though. I'll add a line about that now. Feel free to edit at will, too. People here seem to be fairly amenable to new material. --TricksterWolf 03:23, November 30, 2011 (UTC) ::The Karkat tie-in is a really neat idea. It honestly hadn't occured to me until I read the entry. Well done! I would not be surprised to learn that Cancer is not a constellation in the B2 universe, or that the temporal relationship of the four universes is symmetrical in some way. Also, thanks for catching the appropriate link for the initial Jane/UU conversation. I mis-pasted. ::--Soitsmutiny 05:13, November 30, 2011 (UTC) :::You mis-pasted? I think I just followed your link! :D --TricksterWolf 05:25, November 30, 2011 (UTC) ::::Yeah, my second link is Jake/UU, rather than Jane/UU ::::--Soitsmutiny 05:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC) Random thought that is extremely unlikely to be meaningful, but I can't resist pointing it out: the bases of RNA are AUCG (rather than ATCG). Which could be taken as an acronym for Alternate Universe carcinoGeneticist. As I say, this is more likely to be pure coincidence than anything – and of course one could make a perfectly equal case for Alternate Universe gallowsCalibrator – but it amuses me, so I just thought I'd mention it :P Recent Edits (attn: Sorceror Nobody, Ryulong) Before we get into edit wars, let's discuss the issues below on the talk page please. Thanks! 1) Sorcerer Nobody: No, you don't know the difference between sex and gender. The story is not entirely clear on the topic, but all information so far suggests that all of the trolls are male and presumably only the mother grub is female (trolls all eject redrom and blackrom gametes into buckets, presumably in the same way). In this way they are similar to some colony-based species of insects. The trolls do have gender, however: e.g. Scourge Sisters, use of "bro", pronoun differentiation, completely different manner of dress, etc. I agree with removing sex and leaving just "gender", but you're pretty confused if you think trolls are sexually dimorphic as there is no evidence to support this claim. (I welcome evidence to the contrary if there is a page on UU's gynecological exam that I missed.) For now I'm semi-reverting the edit you made, but fixing it to just say gender and not speculate on sex (since we don't even know if trolls have dimorphic sex). 2) Ryulong: Please check Wikipedia before making unsourced claims. The CADUCEUS is not always winged. WP says "sometimes ''surmounted by wings", not "always" or even "usually". The only reason the caduceus has wings in the first place is because ''the caduceus staff is a symbol of Hermes (from article), and because separate symbols of the same God are often shown '''conjoined' (which is where the wings come from and why they're not always present even when they represent Hermes). In fact, the Caduceus is so closely associated with Hermes/Mercury, it is the basis for Mercury's astrological sign (something the article neglects to mention). Factually speaking at least, UU has more in common with the astrological bodies Mercury and Uranus than she does the constellation Ophiuchus. The latter claim which treats Ophiuchus as a thirteenth zodiac sign is pure speculation, but worthy of note on the page since there are a large number of parallels. I actually agree Ophiuchus is likely the intended target given the number of coincidences, though it still seems most likely to me that UU is a pre-Scratch troll (unless there are multiple sessions per world, which the story has at times suggested and other times suggested not). --TRICKSTERWOLF 15:02, November 30, 2011 (UTC) :There's one pretty clear example of sexual dimorphism: female trolls have breasts, even if it is a case of non-mammalian mammaries. Pretty sure we haven't seen any of the males with breasts. In addition, in order for Karkat to ask how homosexuality is "even a thing", there has to exist some concept of sexuality, otherwise Karkat's second question would have logically been more like a repeat "what is that?", rather than "and why does that make any difference?" ::No, they do not have breasts. Look at some pictures of the ancestors, please. Every female adult is completely flat-chested. The clothing styles are suggestive of breasts but there's nothing there at all. Also, you're still confusing gender and sex. When Karkat says "how is that even a thing" he's referring to gender; he doesn't have a clue that the kids have different equipment downstairs, which is the main reason he doesn't understand why there's a name for an orientation that does not naturally support procreation (he clearly assumes John and Dave could have a child together by suggesting they all pair up to repopulate the species). Karkat generally uses grouchiness as a shield to protect him from potential embarrassment so his response is entirely in-character. ::But to be crystal clear, even if trolls were sexually dimorphic, which they don't appear to be by any measure, the only thing we know about UU is her gender. There's no possible way we could infer her sex, given we don't even know what troll sexes exist. Maybe it's just two, with mother grub and drone, or maybe there are fifty different sexes, given the odd way they mix tons of genetic material together in order to procreate. --TRICKSTERWOLF 16:43, November 30, 2011 (UTC) :::As it happens, I initially also went with the "it's their clothes, they don't actually have boobs" argument, but I was quickly corrected by Word of Huss. Also, make of this what you will. And before you say "He didn't explicitly confirm it" in response to the first link, note the use of the word "also" in his first sentence. Then there's also this one. All in all, the best bet is probably actually to revert it to say both sex and gender. :::Come to think of it, why does it even matter? Really? The whole idea may well end up disproven, because at the moment, it's '''bluh bluh huge speculation'. We should worry about being this pedantic only if and when it's actually confirmed ┌─────────┘ Wow! Thanks for the links--very handy. I'm definitely an outsider as I have not yet entered forums or interacted much apart from some messages I think I sent Andrew a few years ago but he probably won't receive them for another few weeks what with the time anomaly and all. Silly time, always trying to go slowly in one direction... I have to admit I'm not very convinced by those discussions, given Andrew seems to be joking in every response he gives and he's rather catty on the issue. However, I have no problem with troll bewbs (Nepeta go "raowr" here), I just use them to point out two facts: 1) We know that trolls have at least two relatively distinct genders: pronouns, clothing, makeup, friendship roles, and to a lesser extent, hobbies; each tend to follow this pattern. This is mainly clear because those two genders we see in trolls closely parallel human gender roles in Western cultures. Then again, Westerners tend to see our two common genders in everything non-gendered we look at, from automobiles to pets whose sex is not yet tested, so that may be our projection in part. Anyway, it's not quite clear why the trolls type in English or how that translation takes place. Somewhere, there's a decision being made by a translator that says, "this one will be 'she' and this one will be 'he'," and it's probably a reasonably arbitrary assignment unless the thing is awfully sophisticated (HS does have fancy AI, so who knows). Just as an added reality check, in most Terran animals, the femme sex-selection role goes to the male, and in the animal kingdom this usually means the male also has the more "feminine" gender. In Western culture sex-selection role is separate from orientation and gender identity both, e.g. straight but femme sex-select role males like Leisure Suit Larry, The Situation, or Fabio; men who choose to put themselves on display and be fawned over rather than act in the "selector" role for intimate encounters. 2) In contrast, everything we know of troll sexes is highly speculative, apart from the fact that it apparently requires a mother grub and a troll of either gender (or possibly many, many trolls of either or both genders). The only thing we know about UU at the moment is she uses the same set of pronouns as Vriska, and she uses aphroisms considered feminine in English (like "darling"). These are both social phenomena. If and when we see pics of UU and she turns out to have big bouncy bewbs and hips that attach her legs at a negative angle or an enormous ovipositor, then we can start asking questions like, "Are bewbs a secondary sexual characteristic in trolls, or are they part of the fashion for the fairer gender?", or, "Does a troll sex change involve a chainsaw to the bone bulge?" Such things keep poor HS fans awake at night, I'm sure... --TricksterWolf 00:12, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :Fine, the caduceus isn't always winged, but aside from the name "Uranian" and the fact that her symbol is some sort of caduceus, I don't really see any connection with the planets Mercury and Uranus (or any connection to them outside of my attempts to connect Hermes's patronage of boundaries and those who cross them to Jade & John's crossing of the Yellow Yard).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:22, December 1, 2011 (UTC) ::The caduceus, which is what that symbol is, is a primary symbol of the god Mercury. As heavenly bodies go, Mercury is far less speculative than Ophiuchus. In order for Ophiuchus to be involved you have to assume she's using the wrong symbol, and even then you have to pick the right myth involving the rod of Asclepius. ::Now if you don't see a potential connection to "Uranus" from the word "uranian", I don't think I can explain that one any clearer. Mercury and Uranus are both directly associated with UU's symbol and name, respectively, than speculation about her constellation. --TricksterWolf 01:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :::It would be completely out of left field to say that Ophiuchus is completly unrelated to UU, considering that every other troll that has been introduced is somehow linked to the Greek zodiac. It could be a caduceus, or it could be an asklepion. Caduceus is Hermes and Mercury, but snakes still tie into Asclepius/Ophiuchus symbolism. All I have been trying to do is add more information on the classical mythology, including things about Hermes/Mercury as to how he guards people who cross borders, and to make things less wordy.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:30, December 1, 2011 (UTC) ::::No, it's not out of left field. The reason the twelve trolls are in the zodiac is that they created our Universe. That's canon, as is the fact that there are exactly twelve trolls in their session (no other trolls exist in their incisisphere and none exist in the kids' incisisphere at all, so there's no possibly way another troll could be involved directly), and it showed exactly twelve constellations on the comic page. Everything about Ophiuchus is a wild guess with no support from the comic. "Uranian" is in her name and one of the kids even accuses her of being "from Uranus" (though she corrects that), and she uses one of the most common symbols of Mercury (usually carried in his left hand). There are no Ophiuchus symbols or references anywhere. --TricksterWolf 15:35, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :::::The caduceus is one of the most common symbols of Mercury, but it is rarely seen without wings as UU's symbol is, and Ophiuchus is not part of the zodiac, except in the rare occasions of people making up their own zodiac groups, and her symbol does resemble the asklepion (although with a second snake). Hell, for all we know she's just one of 12 new extraterrestrials who had some sort of hand in creating the world and they're all part of the Chinese zodiac and she represents the snake, or we may be introduced to some sort of troll with that whale lusus to represent Cetus. "Uranian" does not always refer to the planet. It's a word referring to the heavens and sky in Greek, and there's no reason that some other Troll escaped the reckoning (and the vast glub) and made it into his or her own instance of Sburb, just like fedorafreak, and somehow this one starts communicating with the Alpha universe's players. :::::But, again, this is all just fan assumptions and no one is no more wrong than another until canon comes around to prove or disprove people.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:25, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :┌────────────┘ :Agreed on all parts save the word "rarely". At worst it is "uncommon" without wings but it's far from rare. :(The other-instance thing is interesting, I don't know what to make of it yet. There are things in the story that suggest there must be other sessions, as well as things that suggest there cannot be other sessions. But this thread is too long to blab on it here, come to my talk page if you want to chat further.) TricksterWolf 13:58, December 2, 2011 (UTC) We know enough about troll breeding through the huge troll romance pages to know this; the trolls requirements are a matesprit and a kismesis. And from everything seen the gender of the matesprits and kismesises are irrelevant suggesting all the trolls are of a single sex even though they are clearly not of the same gender. Speculation that the idea that the Mother Grubs are of the same species can be made from the troll/insect knowledge plus the idea that it being a different species makes less sense than the fact that trolls are raised by a variety of different species anyhow. If we take that then I highly supports the idea that Mother Grubs are the females of the species and Trolls are the males of the species. Of course if they are all males it does lead back to why they have two genders which Hussie in those links suggests is just because it's how he wrote the story and has nothing to do with their biology (blah edit conflict). The Light6 00:33, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :I would just like to clarify some stuff. Yes, female trolls have boobs. Yes, trolls have gender roles pretty much identical to humans. Yes, trolls don't care about which gender they mate with (there is no gay, lesbian and bi to them, although some of them do indeed have a preference for one gender). Yes, trolls of the same gender can contribute their pails and have offsprings (although the whole thing goes into one incestious slime anyway, so we can't be exactly 100% sure). No, we don't know if reproductive organs differ between male and female gendered trolls or if they all have the same sex or are all hermaphrodites or whatever. The presence of breasts indicates biological differences between males and females though.No, the story has so far not indicated that the mother grub is a troll, although that could be assumed it conflicts with her presentation as one of the Lusus/Lusii. There's also the current hint that Lusus/Lusii might be a post-scratch thing. That would indicate that the trolls once worked more like humans, possibly explaining the breasts, and that they over time developped some sort of symbiosis with the Lusus/Lusii. This is as far as I am aware what's been established by the webcomic (and some hussie answers, although the webcomic alone paints this picture as well), although the last part I said about the Lusus/Lusii is pure speculation. Don't know anything about the hermes staff stuff, so I can't comment on that. (stupid edit conflicts D:)BitterLime 00:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :::I agree it's speculation in part, which is why I don't mind it being toned down, but I've responded about this on your page BitterLime. What The Light6 says is a fair appraisal. Mother Grubs lay troll eggs. Every animal on Earth produces offspring for its own species. It can't produce offspring for some other species because that's not how genetics work. I agree that the post-Scratch Lusii implications make this less likely, but who says the Scratch can't rewrite even the details of how a race reproduces? :::Also, I'm still waiting to see those hawt pics of supposed troll titties that I'm pretty sure aren't anywhere in the webcomic ("troll Drew Barrymore" aside). :D Although the topic there is ultimately irrelevant given points we all agree upon. --TricksterWolf 01:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC) : I saw what you posted on my page and replied to it. I also saw what the light6 said and I think that atm everything relating to troll reproduction is speculation in some way or another, so I think that we can agree that we don't really know, because thre are several possibilities and it's weird fictional alien biology. I posted pictures of troll boobs on my talk page though :p, I'm suprised you missed that. They were all taken from the ancestors page. Just look at the pictures of Redglare and Mindfang. As I said on my talk page, you may argue that they might stuff themselves, but what would the point be? Hussie himself said they have something like breast there, and it's clearly visible multiple times throughout the webcomic, so I don't know what you are looking for? Official naked drawings of trolls from hussie? Here's another one, that isn't featured on the ancestors page: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/04068.gif. Both of them have visible "bumps". And that's even an example where it's nto vible all that well compared to others.BitterLime 16:00, December 1, 2011 (UTC) :I can see the boobs now, yes. :) Some of the ones you posted I didn't agree were "obvious boobs", others I missed previously because of the contrast on my monitor (mindfang), but the Redglare pic is pretty obvious and especially the one you just posted above. :None of this convinces me it's necessarily sexual dimorphism we're seeing. It could be a style of clothing (like shoulder pads) or something of that sort. However, given that trolls have a Will Smith, it seems like the parallels are uncanny and the differences are actually what is bizarre, so it's a natural conclusion that they have two sexes and somehow the weird breeding stuff is worked into the story properly. My issues on this page were related primarily to the initial implication by Sorceror Nobody that the only possible way for UU to refer to herself as a girl and use expressions like "darling" would be for her to possess a human vulva downstairs. --TricksterWolf 18:53, December 1, 2011 (UTC) ::I never implied anything so specific about genitalia, and sexual dimoprhism doesn't necessarily have to involve genitalia at all anyway. Any consistent differences between the two sexes of any species are examples of sexual dimorphism. Even something as simple as facial hair in humans is a clear example, or that men generally have a higher muscle mass than women, at least on average. Breasts most definitely are dimorphism ::Also, I'd suggest not using my sig to refer to me in the middle of your post. I was very confused for a few seconds, as it looked like someone was impersonating me. :::Sorry about the sig use, I'm new here and don't know the best way to refer to someone and their user page w/o nabbing the sig. Didn't think it through. :::Breasts are indeed dimorphic in humans. They're a "secondary sexual characteristic" technically. But this relies upon the fact that sex exists at all in humans. Skin color differs in humans but this isn't a sexual characteristic. There's no reason to think bewbs would be a sex-based trait in a pansexual non-mammalian culture. It seems more likely to me that gender choice or determination leads to boobs than dimorphic sex leads to boobs leads to lusus raises wriggler to wear dresses. :::Anyway this is waaaaay too long, chat me up on my talk page if you want to continue this further. I think we're in agreement on all the important parts (i.e. what constitutes speculation). TricksterWolf 13:58, December 2, 2011 (UTC) I would hate to be obvious I am aware of hoe stupid this sounds myself, but thought I might contribute. The Caduceus is traditionally a sign that has something to do with Doctors and medicine. Could UU be in someway related or connected to Doc Scratch? Silly suggestion. I am the lightning, The rain transformed 20:54, December 13, 2011 (UTC) :Oh gog... I actually wouldn't be surprised. I mean, we don't know Scratch's real name, just as we don't know LE's real name (although then again, it may be the same name). In light of that consideration, the fact that UU refuses to reveal her name just got a little bit more worrying :S I wouldn't go so far as to say that I think it's likely, but this is Homestuck. I wouldn't put anything past Hussie by this point... Lime blood? Given the recent post by Hussie, I am wondering if anyone else is speculating UU might be lime blooded? Hussie himself pointed out that Karkat and his mutant blood took the place of lime out of the 12 trolls and there is plently on UU's page already about her being an opposite to Karkat (healer to his cancer forming, etc). The Light6 13:59, December 14, 2011 (UTC) :One thing I noticed is we know the trolls' symbols match their blood colour, apart from Karkat's lame grey anonymity. Given that the caduceus has bright green snakes around a grey staff, if UU were a limeblood, her symbol would match both her blood colour and her lame grey anonymity. I am not a gambling man (that's not a thing that stopped being true or anything), but if I were, I'd be willing to bet that UU is more likely a lime-blooded troll than any other colour :Ditto. Anyone else noticed the connection between the limeblood, British spelling, and the 'limey' thing? It sound like the kind of thing Hussie would tie into the story. -TofuCaroline :Not only that, but she has said things that have suggested that she is a Hero of Space in her session, and both Hero's of Space so far have had an association to green (And we all know how much Hussie loves patterns). Also I doubt that he would have pointed it out if it wasn't important. 09:32, December 31, 2011 (UTC) The Scratched Deceiver Just as the scratched ver of the trolls (the actual trolls) the scratched kid's version seem to have a first guardian AND a deceiving entity. The cryptic beheavior of UU seems to strenghten this theory. Plus her sing, Ophiuchus is represented by the snake, a vile animal used for the beast to deceive the inhabitants of the paradise. 23:15, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Complacency of the Learned/Calmasis I am confident that the book Complacency of the Learned was written about UU. Reasons: *The caduceus wrapped around the letter P obviously implies that UU is involved. *"Uranian" can mean "of indiscernible gender" and the main character, Calmasis, is androgynous and referred to as a "s/he," *The character on the cover is grey-skinned, as a troll would be, as well as wearing green, as I would expect UU would be. My theorie(s): The author, post-scratch Rose, has vision omnifold, and could easily use UU as inspiration if not recording his/her actions outright. Roxy's cat was named after one of the wizards (Frigglish) who was made to record all of his knowledge in a journal, which grew to be so massive as to be the cause of his death. If I recall correctly, there was another daunting text that could "kill a cat if you dropped it." Said text killing someone in the crocker/sassacre/egbert/harley side of the family-genepool could be the reason UU was hesitant to reveal his/her identity to Jane. It is quite possible that names have been changed for the book, such as that of Frigglish/Sassacre(?), and Calmasis/UU. 06:37, January 18, 2012 (UTC) Yes those are quite straighfoward clues if not redherrings, also i quote " " Another refference to the trolls maybe? and who would be this Scholar? Would s/he get a god tier? as it states that s/he would somehow, with an unusual enchantment, be able to play beyond death. :The Scholar was another name for Zazzerpan, unless I somehow misread it. Also no one was playing beyond their deaths. Rather the game was continuing beyond the death of the King when in chess that means game over, the enchantment thus could be thought of as Sburb, the White King dies or is exiled but despite that the game continues. The Light6 09:33, January 18, 2012 (UTC) :Oh and I should probably add this: The grey skin doesn't necessarily mean a troll (though UU most likely is but that's besides the point), taking into account the eyes, and the fact Calmasis is wielding a wand would suggest that like Rose, s/he has gone grimdark. Also we already know that Complacency of the Learned is about the trolls, of course that was Word of God so it could have been retconned (as opposed to being changed by the Scratch, which I guess is a cosmic retcon anyhow) to being about the connection between UU and the trolls. The Light6 12:26, January 18, 2012 (UTC) :The way the Predicant Scholar is named is reminiscent of the Exiles. I say we keep an eye open in case those same initials show up again on another character. 15:18, January 18, 2012 (UTC) ::Oh but that character already exists! :P The Light6 15:31, January 18, 2012 (UTC) In the new update, It confirms that UU is a girl and her class is gender-specific. Very likely to be a Witch of X or a Maid of X, for example. 09:51, January 29, 2012 (UTC) :We have two Maids and two Witches, but only one Sylph. I reckon UU is a Sylph. Which would either rule out her being a Space player, or make things even more interesting if her title turned out to be the same as Kanaya's :this is what we've learned from here: the book is related to Problem Sleuth and UU who is somehow related to Kanaya. MaximusAwesomus 13:38, February 4, 2012 (UTC) Title Since we're aready talkiing about classes, and since there is only one currently empty power, I believe UU is most likely a Hero of Doom, Unless their is a 13th power specific to herCrystalGriffin 00:45, February 1, 2012 (UTC). ::UU is probably a Sylph of Blood, and she may not be the same character as Calmasis at all (just related to him). This would explain the female-specific class and the connections with Karkat. ::And why this specific class/aspect? Because of... THIS! : http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=646jvx7vec62id8&thumb=6, note that there's no other vacant spot for a female-only class, only Sylph is free. brocoli 00:34, February 3, 2012 (UTC) ::While I have no problems with the Sylth part I think the final team will consist of a hero of each power. Unless Sollux Revives and manages to travel dimensions we still don't have an active Hero of Doom. So the most logical title would be Sylth of Doom. Unless Hussie Reads this and decides to make it something that doesn't make any sense. CrystalGriffin 01:43, February 3, 2012 (UTC) ::But going by that logic, we have two heroes of space in the final team... and if official living/dead status was important, we would have to count Aradia, and then we would have two heroes of Time... ::There's also the fact that Feferi still has her prophecy to fufill, even though she's dead. ::Maybe LE is a Bard of Doom? :3 brocoli 15:20, February 3, 2012 (UTC) ::Ok I can't offer an explanation for Kanaya's case unless she get's killed off later or if her becoming a rainbow drinker has affected her postion of Sylth of Space, but Aradia ,even though she's living, is stuck at the green sun, therefore she will not be part of the final group. Also Feferi has already fufilled he prophecy by creating the dream bubbles which united the kids and trolls. Also Why would Lord English have a title? One more thing brocoli , are we the only people arguing about this? CrystalGriffin 21:17, February 3, 2012 (UTC) ::It seems to make sense that it would be a random 13th one because, as it stands, 13 is a big number for her. MaximusAwesomus 23:23, February 3, 2012 (UTC) ::While a 13th power would make sense it seems like every power is required to complete the game and Without a Hero of Doom it seems like something is missing.CrystalGriffin 22:47, February 8, 2012 (UTC) ::Well then this is simple. Obviously there is more then one troll going to be introduced. 22:49, February 8, 2012 (UTC) ::Considering UU has contacted all 4 post-scratch Kids I don't think it's very likely for a 14th Troll. ::I belive you might want to look at this "UU: i'd thoUght we had everything settled, bUt it's always something with him. UU: i even told him in my last message it woUld sUit me fine if he wanted to be the server player instead. i jUst want to begin!" that means there is another troll. Yes I did just prove that MaximusAwesomus 12:52, February 9, 2012 (UTC) :::But we already knew there were other players in her session, we just didn't know about them, and that has told us... well nothing. The quote about the other player basically being a genetic brother is much more insightful. The Light6 13:12, February 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay Fine I was wrong I posted that before Alien. Considering my what I put on my own profile page I probably Should have realized she couldn't play without another troll.On a side note did it look like she was wearing Nepeta's jacket with cancer sign cufflinks? CrystalGriffin 04:59, February 10, 2012 (UTC) ::Yeah it did. We know that Nepeta died and thus might be post scratched so that leads to the possibility of some sort of Nepeta/Karkat troll MaximusAwesomus 20:00, February 12, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay, Back to titles. With the confirmed existance of the 14th troll many previous theories are now moot. If UU has a brand new title than the 14th one should also have a new title but that would still leave the position of Hero of Doom open. However if they do not have new powers there would be an extra power unless someone else dies. CrystalGriffin 21:11, February 13, 2012 (UTC) ::I belive she has some sort of realationship to Kanaya, this possibly meaning she is either a Slyph or Space or even both. MaximusAwesomus 21:34, February 13, 2012 (UTC) ::Also speaking, I belive that the 14th troll is a hero of Doom due to UU's description of him. MaximusAwesomus 21:37, February 13, 2012 (UTC) ::First, UU has shown no signs of being related to Kanaya in the slightest. Second, if they aren't using new title shouldn't they be space and time because they are the necessary roles to play? Third, if they are space and time, doom would still be missing and we would have more extra space and time heroes! Fourth, Chezrush why are you using a fake username!?!?--CrystalGriffin 23:00, February 13, 2012 (UTC) you can not defeat CrystalGriffin in a logic off, he is simply the best there is. --CrystalGriffin 23:00, February 13, 2012 (UTC) Firstly in the last topic, we came to a conclusion that UU is related to Kananya. Second yes exactly UU is a hero of Space. Third, there obviously is more trolls. OBVIOUSLY. Fourth because Crystal, I want to. And you will see it in action now MaximusAwesomus 23:50, February 13, 2012 (UTC) Level Up for Slaying the Griffin. MaximusAwesomus 23:52, February 13, 2012 (UTC) Sylph Does not Necessarily Mean UU is related to Kanaya. For example, Rose and Terezi are both seers but have nothing to do with each other. Also, THERE ARE NO MORE TROLLS WE HAVE OFFICIALLY RUN OUT OF CONSTELLATIONS THAT FIT THE ZODIAC THEME!!!!!!! CrystalGriffin 00:09, February 14, 2012 (UTC) You make a good point for the first part but it still is probebly going to be Sylph or Space. Also I thought we had ran out when we hit 13. But seeing that theres a 14th there's obviously something. Also maybe the signs are going again with the exception of UU. MaximusAwesomus 00:03, February 14, 2012 (UTC) there are 14 constelations that could be considered part of the zodiac. the twelve accepted ones that the Karkat's group is based off of. the there is Ophiuchus, the snake bearer, which is what UU is based off of. the final 14th one is Cetus the whale and with the addition of the 14th troll there are no more constellations that fit with the zodiac theme. So unless Hussie starts adding in random constellations there are no more trolls. CrystalGriffin 00:09, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Also maybe the signs are going again with the exception of UU AND CETUS WHICH IS ALREADY A FUCKING DENIZEN MaximusAwesomus 00:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Just because Cetus is the name of a denizen does not mean that the 14th troll is not based off of the constellation. And UU is obviously based on Ophiuchus because of the snake theme and that the zodiac sign is a U with a ~ through it. --CrystalGriffin 00:17, February 14, 2012 (UTC) :OK what happened here? Really nothing has been confirmed about UU, most of it is speculation and opinions and should be over in the Frog Template forum, especially since Talk pages are meant for constructive discussion about the page. Look I am going to archive this page, it has become bloated and unwieldy. Feel free to continue the discussion over here but please don't let it consume the talk page again. The Light6 00:53, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Did anyone read the notice? Why is there still a huge topic on Speculation on the page when this notice states that we can't put speculation on pages? 22:53, February 8, 2012 (UTC) :I did think about this, and I decided to leave UU's speculation section alone. At least for now. I also deliberated over whether all of the stuff on talk pages should be physically moved to the forum as well. That, at any rate, probably will happen. It's mainly a question of logistics for that. :Okay, so given that this is to be enforced, why is the UU article different? Surely we should be even more strict with the article than the talk page? Well, yes, really, we should. But I decided not to for UU. This may sound like a strange double standard, but I think it's not unreasonable to say that we have some pretty good theories in place here. Really, the aim was to prevent everyone and their dog putting random wild mass guessing all over the place – the UU speculation is more tidy than that, which makes it manageable. :I would have to say that it probably should be moved eventually, but because it's such a big section, it'd leave quite a significant hole in the UU article, which doesn't actually have much else on it. No other article I've noticed has such a robust speculation section... if any others even have a section for it at all. And anyway, it may be that by the time we'd finally moved it all smoothly, we might have to start putting half of it back. That would depend on Hussie as much as on us ; ) :tl;dr version: I think the nature of the UU article's speculation is kinda unique, and so while it shouldn't necessarily be treated differently in broad terms, it doesn't hurt to consider what exactly to do with it in more detail. And most of all, we do still need to keep a eye on anything being added Was this page necessary? Was this page really necessary? Her identity, name, or actual portrait have not been brought to the light of day yet, so I find it a bit odd to create a page for her so early. If this dispute has already been settled, I apologize, however, I still find it strange to not wait until her full revealed.My Keyblade + Your face = pwnage 04:12, February 10, 2012 (UTC) Chihuahuaman Yes it is because we already have info about her and she is canon and canon means pages. MaximusAwesomus 19:56, February 12, 2012 (UTC) So ummm... I saw that my (Compleatly valid) possibility for UU being from a future session in a yet to be created universe has been removed... why exactly? and don't give me that "no speculaition" carp, there's an entire subsection on UU's page full of it. is it an "everyone but this guy can make edits" deal here? Is that what's going on? I honestly don't see why my compleatly valid possibility was taken down, but the seven or so suggesting it was Aradia's ancestor or whatever didn't. 18:12, February 11, 2012 (UTC) Try posting it on the Frog Temple forum. Thats where you can. Also 'that guy' is the admin and he's not adding anything. MaximusAwesomus 19:54, February 12, 2012 (UTC)